Published On: October 24, 2021

113 thoughts on “Chapter 10 – Page 75

  1. Appears that the timeline is already changing, something that is really interesting for what happens going forward.
    Also, with the chapter finally over, we can finally move on after such an intense chapter…

  2. I just knew it, like Angel, Hoku did also survive the blast as well. She wasn’t suicidal after all. And thank goodness Annie is ok, or at least for now. Nice ending for the chapter.

  3. Oh shit They even knew “OH HELL NO I am NOT throwing hands with THAT DUDE.” I don’t blame them. Look what he did that to Hoku. It’s a miracle the girl can still WALK.
    NGL I am a little underwhelmed that Angel didn’t say something incriminating like “You better leave her while you can still walk” or “Touch her again and I’ll turn your heads backwards.”
    This would’ve been a great character change moment. Oh well at least we get another installment of “Angel Saves Annie from the world.”

  4. Wait a minute…In Cathy’s dream…Annie was injected by Dr. Ivan and she was wearing the same clothes. How did she…OH MY GOD I FORGOT ABOUT BRYCE. Alright people time to prepare. Benitez vs Farrel ROUND 2 baby. I would pay good money for Angel to show his bad side. Hell having him roar like Norman did…I want Angel to do something that scares April. Something that shows his bad side. I’d pay money to see Angel’s bad side. UNLEASH IT YOU KNOW YOU WANT TO!

  5. By the way watch the speech bubbles for the guards. you got them switched in the top right.

  6. FINALLY ITS OVER!!! 2 YEARS LATER. Anticlimactic to all hell but it ends with Hoku being mad that Angel is a menace to society.

  7. Awwwwww is someone mad because Angel made you look like a car accident victim? Boo-hooo let me play a sad song on the world’s smallest violin.

  8. Thank God this is over. Ch 11 on the way. Any guesses on the title? I think it’s gonna be called “I’m not the same person you used to know”
    thoughts on the page; Great artwork but that dialogue…I’m not feeling it.

    1. I’m with you on the dialogue but I put that to translation. I saw the spanish version and it honestly sounds a lot better in spanish.

      1. Where did you find a Spanish version?

        1. Inkbunny. this new website lacks more than just the chapter-part-tile set that was offered in the previous installment.

  9. I guess Cathy is this world’s oracle. She can only tell you what can happen, not what will happen. The timeline is changing.

    1. Nice little Matrix reference. Now what I wanna see is angel and Beck in the same gym. Just put the two of em in a gym and see what happens.

  10. This may be nitpicking, no scratch that, it IS nitpicking, but I think Angel’s arms should be more defined. Angel did THAT to Hoku all by himself. dude should have a bigger arm. That’s just my thought.
    Angel, now it the time to work out. You now know you have a huge target on your back and your family and friends are in danger. Did I mention that your mom has been resurrected?
    As much it makes me happy that this chapter ends with Hoku physically injured, it makes mw a bit sad that one of the best character designed had to be evil because Hoku is better looking than Annie.
    In chapter 11, I wanna see Angel with a new girl just to have Angel get over April and to see April’s reaction. Now imagine if someone like Mya or a new character falls for him and April becomes jealous of Angel giving them attention. And then BAM. April realizes that she has a soft spot for him. Begin what I call the Audrey Effect: starts loving him more for the small things and falls in love without realizing.

    1. Yea, even i wish Hoku wasn’t evil. She’s cute. Also a fighter like Angel.

  11. Wait is the blue guy deaf or the brown guy? I think the panel’s voice boxes are switched.

  12. looks like angle saved the timeline.

  13. Great job Angel, Annie’s saved!

  14. Also I just noticed it says “holu” at the bottom of the page lol.

  15. whenis the next page coming out? i love this comic so much.

  16. Look I know it is WAYYYY to early to gauge the theme of the chapter but every chapter has a different theme.
    For Example: Chapter 1 was about chasing love.
    Chapter 2 was about luck
    Chapter 3 was about understanding
    Chapter 4 was about painful reality
    Chapter 5 was about confusion and anger
    Chapter 6 was about self-reflection
    Chapter 7 was about life being hard and unfair
    Chapter 8 was about grief and danger
    Chapter 9 was about struggle and adversity
    Chapter 10 was about violence and impending discord
    Chapter 11 is a question mark. My guess is that it is about hope and despair. Yep we’re going in danganronpa mode and Angel is our monokuma.

  17. Cute characters :3

  18. El episodio término muy bien ya pensaba que no la sacaría de alli. E notado que las páginas ya no cambian de idioma y muchos de los comentarios que estaba ya no están algo pasó ?

    1. Lamento decírselo, pero como se cerró el complemento del sitio web original, Pietro tuvo que improvisar. A este nuevo complemento le faltan algunas cosas que tenía su versión original, que incluían diseño de página e idioma de página intercambiable. Las versiones en español todavía están en Inkbunny si quieres verlas.
      (Lo siento si es difícil de entender. El español no es mi primer idioma y todavía estoy aprendiendo)

  19. Ooo gracias por la información estaba leyendo algo al respecto con un problema que tuvo la página ya pensaba que era mi pc o los navegadores que no funciona bien .?

    1. En todo caso, no es culpa del sitio web o del creador. WordPress es el culpable aquí. Este sitio web funciona con wordpress, que es una plataforma de creación de sitios web. WordPress ha tenido algunos problemas en los últimos años y fue la razón por la que el cómic se trasladó de Palcomix a aquí. Muchos sitios web tienen problemas ahora debido a WordPress.
      Es muy molesto.

  20. HI GUYS. I just want to see what this page is offering rn. It is my birthday today so I’m just popping in to everywhere. I finally got my palcomix calendar printed properly so it’s like a normal calendar (and yes I censored it).

    1. Happy birthday man! I’m doing better thanks for asking. also a Palcomix calendar? where can I find it?

      1. It’s currently on palcomix main comic site ^^ (obviously NSFW )

    2. Hello!, regarding the comic, need a couple of months more at least resting, it was really exhausting chapter ..heh

      1. Need I remind you that you spent more than 2 WHOLE YEARS making this and most of us didn’t come or return until 2020. You earned your rest. Well be waiting for you when you return. We’ll Probably still be arguing over what Angel’s last name is or saying that Angel can do much better than April.

        1. I have something for you, back when we see the deceased card of Ellie (the page with Benedicts memories i believe) this is was written on the script :

        2. I am now kinda wishing I didn’t ask…in all honesty I was practically begging for Something that screams Spanish badass. For example, Mendez is a badass name. Cruz is a badass name. Saulo is a VERY badass name. Benitez, Xavan, Kristo, are also badass names, but not Benoit. When I see Benoit, I think of that wrestler who killed his wife, kid, than himself.
          But hey, that’s one family down. Now everyone is saying April and Alfred are Valdez-Costa for a long time (don’t know how or why we came to that conclusion) so obviously their last name will probably be Ruggs or Simpson.

        3. Well. that’s Ellie, not Angel or Annie ^^, they should have the last name of her father.. we don’t know that yet. Benedict was Bernstein I believe (not sure if I mentioned). about Ellie’s last name That was on the scirpt, not in the comic, there was many stuff that was on the script that was not on the final version, did I mention that originally Norman was actually April?.. the idea of a beast april was changed, but then somewhat returned pages later with the half transformed April that we had. Well. to resume If is not in the comic is not cannon yet..

        4. Wallochia Palam

          So, we learned that Finn does not have the same last name as Ellie. Great to know.
          Also, Benedict’s last name really is Bernstein. It was confirmed in a News segment in Chapter 9 where he is declared missing.

      2. Considering all the twists and turns of the chapter, I think we all need some resting.

        1. Amen to that

      3. Wasn’t Beck’s last name leaked to be McCaffrey or McCarthy or McAlister? I remember it being rumored that his last name was “Mc-” something because of a name tag or something.

  21. Merry Christmas, everyone!

    1. Wish you guys Merry Xmas too!! 😀

    2. Happy Christmas!!! Hope you all are having an amazing christmas because today I got the news that I’ve been promoted. I hope Father Christmas gave you all a lot to enjoy.

    3. Who here celebrates Dia De los Reyes? Am I the only one because that is bigger than Christmas in my culture.

      1. I celebrate that holiday as well

  22. Hey guys, happy holidays

  23. Just wanna wish everyone a happy new year. Here’s to 2022!

  24. wish you guys a happy new year

    1. Same to you. Hope everything will be good in the new year.

    2. Super Late but HAPPY NEW YEAR

  25. When is the next chapter coming out?

    1. I mean we’re not rushing him or anything bc let’s be honest, this new covid strand is messing everything up. I’ll Say February bc he has to write a whole script and everything.

    Hey Guys, do u wanna do something lie this for LT just for fun. Just use some aspects of a character to determine who would win.
    Experience (fight history)
    Battle IQ
    Abilities (talents or special abilities)
    Energy (stamina)
    And then tally the results and get a winner

    1. Heres an example: Audrey vs April (ooh barn burner)
      Strength: April (0-1)
      Durability: April (0-2)
      Height: April (0-3)
      Agility: Audrey (1-3)
      Speed: Audrey (2-3)
      Experience: April (2-4)
      IQ: Audrey (3-4)
      Battle IQ: April (3-5)
      Abilities: Audrey (4-5)
      Flexibility: Audrey (5-5)
      Energy: Audrey (6-5)
      The Winner: Audrey (6-5)

      1. heh. what version of april?, also not sure what the numbers means 😛

        1. Numbers means the total score as we go through each category. Whoever has the highest number at the end is the winner.
          And this is the regular canon characters. Audrey in any form wouldn’t stand a CHANCE against Monster April let’s just be clear.

        2. Isn’t Mutant April still canon? Even though it was just a dream?

        3. Well if what we are reading is correct, Mutant April is not real, at least as of yet. Cathy’s little matrix Oracle moment was not reality in it’s entirety. But yeah Normal April vs normal Audrey, Audrey slaps no question. Mutant April can slice up Bryce, Benedict, and Lemmy for breakfast with no issue so I’m pretty sure that Audrey would be killed in half a second by her.

  27. everything on the oficial comic is official 🙂

    1. Well if what we are reading is correct, Mutant April is not real, at least as of yet. Cathy’s little matrix Oracle moment was not reality in it’s entirety. But yeah Normal April vs normal Audrey, Audrey slaps no question. Mutant April can slice up Bryce, Benedict, and Lemmy for breakfast with no issue so I’m pretty sure that Audrey would be killed in half a second by her.

    2. Had us going over the place with the events throughout Chapter 10, when all of this occur inside the mind of Cathy. Not to mentioned when people think Angel was dead, he was actually alive.

  28. Ok I’ll try out this game. I await the banter that will come in my general direction. These takes are seriously dodgy because of nobody knowing the characters on a physical scale but it’s my opinion, allow it.
    Annie vs Mya
    Strength: Mya (0-1)
    Durability: Mya (0-2)
    Height: Annie (1-2)
    Agility: Annie (2-2)
    Speed: Annie (3-2)
    Experience: Mya (3-3)
    IQ: Mya (3-4)
    Battle IQ: Mya (3-5)
    Abilities: Annie (4-5)
    Flexibility: Annie (5-5)
    Energy: Annie (6-5)
    The Winner: Annie (6-5)

    1. So basically which out of the two weakest characters would win in a fight. I’ll save you some time: they get their brothers to fight for them.

  29. You know what, screw it. I’m going lore hunting through the chapters. Whose with me?

    1. That sounds fun. Let’s do it.
      And maybe discuss some head canons along with it…

    2. Going into excruciating detail to give the creator ideas on what to do? Count me in. Might as well make this our version of the FNAF Lore.

  30. So this is going to be long…Very…Very…Very…Very Long
    This is a timeline I made up including years. I’m going to use 2015 as the current time, so this page’s date is October 31, 2015. If I made any mistakes, Please feel free to correct me.
    1979: Finn and Ellie separate at age 6 because Ellie’s mom married a rich man.
    1989: Finn enrolls in a school to study science at a higher level when he is 16
    1990: Finn gets news of Ellie’s return and her going to enroll in his school at age 17
    1991: Finn and Ellie reunite at age 17-18
    1996: Finn and Ellie marry at age 23
    July 13, 1997: Angel and Annie are born
    February 5, 2003: Ellie’s collapse
    March 14, 2003: Ellie dies
    April 2, 2003: Audrey turns 6 years old
    April 4, 2003: Audrey’s deadly accident
    May 3, 2003: Annie and Angel separate at age 6
    May 30, 2003: Audrey is forced to live with her poor relative
    January 26, 2006: Benedict takes Audrey in
    2007: Romi is born
    October 9, 2009: Benedict finishes his massive skyscraper
    September 10, 2010: April and Angel first see each other (They don’t formally meet)
    2011: Cathy is diagnosed with Cancer
    January 2, 2012: Audrey discovers Benedict’s harem and runs away
    January 3, 2012: Alfred discovers Audrey on the street
    January 4, 2012: Audrey moves in with Alfred
    July 29, 2012: Benedict finds Audrey and explains everything
    July 30, 2012: Audrey leaves Alfred
    January 19, 2013: Annie returns to live with Finn and Angel
    January 29, 2013: Annie’s first day at Angel’s school
    February 12, 2013: Evan Tells April he has feelings for Annie’s
    February 10, 2013: April starts to pretend to be Annie’s friend
    May 12, 2013: April’s haircut
    May 14, 2013: Annie comes to April’s house and tries to convince her to come back to school, fails, and starts to come over to April’s every day to help her study
    June 21, 2013: Evan moves to another city
    March 3, 2014: Angel discovers Annie in distress in the bathroom and starts to get suspicious
    March 20, 2014: Angel finds the truth about Annie being sexually assaulted and proceeds to beat the teacher doing it
    March 21, 2014: Annie kisses Angel in her sleep
    September 7, 2015: Annie Rejects April’s feelings
    September 19, 2015: The “Everything Day” that started with Annie meeting Bryce, had Beck’s special delivery midday, and ended with Angel getting hit with a car.
    September 20, 2015: The day when everyone that was involved with the complicated day, met up.
    September 22, 2015: Angel gets released from the hospital
    October 7, 2015: The pool day incident and Bryce’s fake death
    October 9, 2015: Angel is given a mysterious dosage of an unknown drug in front of Audrey
    October 10, 2015: Angel is diagnosed with Candimis (That’s what I’m gonna call the virus), Beck gets news of Bryce, and Audrey goes to the morgue
    October 21, 2015: Angel escapes the hospital with April, Benedict falls into a feral form and is saved by Audrey
    October 22, 2015: Hoku meets Bryce, Finn explains the virus and the situation with Angel.
    October 27, 2015: Beck begins his investigation and interrogates the hospital nurse
    October 31, 2015: The nightclub disaster and Beck finds out Bryce is alive and Bryce sees him
    …Yeah…I’m insane for doing this…

    1. My only question is how long did this take?

      1. This took about an hour or two. As you can tell, I am very productive in my spare time.

    2. I actually have a similar tree of events for the story writing process…

      1. I had to do the math so the “Apocalypse” would be in 2020-2022. How ironic.
        A world being torn apart because of a dangerous virus? Where have I seen that before?

        1. what surprise me is that the time distances between events are very close to how i planned, people like you makes me want to retiurn to the comic as soon as possible

        2. I mean…we don’t wanna rush you but yeah we kinda miss it.

        3. AWWWWWW
          Hey thats what Fans are supposed to do. We’re here to support you and give you a reason to keep going. You still are and we love you for it.

    3. Lol Candimis??? That’s the name you got for the virus? NGL I like it but I’d rather it be named Wareianic Disease (Ware wolf disease)

      1. I think the virus should be dubbed the diablo disease, for irony’s sake (get it? Diablo, and Angel has it?)

  31. Decided to stop by and see how everybody is doing. I took a little road trip down to America to ski in Vermont.

  32. I am fine…
    Just thinking stuff to myself…

    1. Are u good palam? That message seemed to be a bit negative. Is everything alright?

      1. I’m good. I’m just focusing on other things while I wait for the new chapter.
        Things like college and other hobbies that I want to focus on.

  33. When is the page come out?

    1. Can’t say, just when is ready .. i needed to breath a little after so stressing chapter and critics

      1. Welcome to the life of a NSFW online creator where Hate, A bunch of people stealing your content, and anything that you do will offend someone for some reason.

  34. Maybe a little hint for the title of the next chapter?

    1. Well, I currently have 40% of the script done, no tittle yet.. all can say is that the events will return to the regular timeline on this chapter

      1. Huh…40% of the script, no title, and events are in regular time…
        Well lets deduce how we think this is gonna go down. BBMBBF likes to write in a series where a bunch of characters start in separate places only to meet in the middle or back where they started previously.
        Here’s what My order of events is:
        -Audrey and Benedict whereabouts
        -Update on Beck’s little investigation (Won’t be surprised if he takes Romi as a possible lead)
        -*POSSIBLY* Rose’s side story
        -April’s opinions on Angel and what or who he is turning into
        -Cathy gets sidetracked in her wandering (could run into Bryce on accident knowing her situation convenience)
        -Angel looks for his father
        *FINAL SCENE PREDICTION*—> Angel’s feral form lashes out and he attacks Benedict to prevent his father’s death (further changing Cathy’s dream’s timeline)
        Also sorry for disappearing off the either. College took a tool on me and I already got the Army scouting me. Recruiters are everywhere now

        1. That final scene prediction would be wild if it happened.

  35. I just realized that in our little spurs of conversation, not once have we discussed Ellie’s importance. Not once have we been like: OH YEAH, THIS GIRL WAS THE VILLAIN IN Cathy’s VISION.
    No idea what is happening with her because according to Yowki’s little timeline, Ellie died over 10 years ago. Does anyone have any idea why Ellie resurrected? According to Aftermath, a service that specializes in death and crime scene cleanup, body decomposition starts immediately after death. And a body’s internal organs decompose after 1-3 days and skin liquidation can take around a month. So unless Benedict started turning Ellie into his own personal Frankenstein immediately after her death, Ellie wouldn’t be around during this timespan because if Benedict decided to bring her back recently, Ellie’s remains would would’ve dissolved into an empty skeleton.

    1. If you remember back in chapter 6, one of the siblings was telling the story of their mom and dad, Ellie and Finn. It was during that when they see their mother in hospital and she died when they were young. Cathy wouldn’t be aware at that time that Ellie did died, otherwise she wouldn’t imagine her being alive. Though Cathy was close to Angel in earlier chapters, one would wonder if Angel did tell her about his mother.

    2. A simple explanation to the whole Ellie situation is that Ellie never died and that her death was faked, with her put in stasis until a solution was found and Benedict destroying documents with the help of Finn.

      1. Why would Ellie fake her death? And don’t tell me it was for Benedict earlier in chapter 10, his flashback proved she was brought back by him AFTER his first feral change around chapter 8. I say she wasn’t dead but rather the virus left her in a deep coma that stopped her heart, but didn’t kill her. So a wicked thought I have was that the virus corrupted Ellie, who tried to fight it but lost, putting her in a deathly coma. however this virus when spread to Benedict, corrupted him further and told him to revive Ellie (the tube scene). When Ellie was revved, her old self was gone and she grew fully corrupt. I believe the same happened to Bryce as well.

        1. So your telling me that Ellie pulled an unintentional Lord Blackwood (Sherlock Holmes reference), and the virus kept her body neither alive nor dead. And that same virus, corrupted Benedict, prompting him to be a puppet to the virus…and that puppeteering caused Benedict to revive Ellie’s body into a corrupted entity.
          did this mf just solve the case…After disappearing off the aether…MF did you major in lawyering or something Pooml?

        2. But if we’re talking about the same virus that turn Benedict into a feral, why didn’t it happen with Ellie though? Don’t know about the virus corrupting Ellie because we seen the same with Angel inside a glass tube as Ellie tries to revive him and April as a fighting machine at the refugee camp.

  36. Do you still sell STL files for models bbmbbf or is it just the two on Because I would like to buy the files for angel and annie. Sorry for posting on here because I have no clue how to message you any other way.

    1. i’m affrain only have the models that are on sale on

      1. Thank you for letting me know.

    2. J google bbmbbf and his twitter should show up

    3. J google bbmbbf and his twitter should show up.

  37. Wait hold on did Pooml actually decipher the entirety of Ellie’s existence using Yowki’s fan-made timeline? Is Yowki’s chronology that close to the real timeline?

    1. That is what I am thinking as well

  38. I need Pooml to explain how he came up with that conclusion. Based on what we are given, nothing points out that answer at all. First of all, if Ellie’s body was preserved in a coffin for more than a decade, unless the ground moisture around where she was buried, the coffin insides would be warm. There’s a reason why cold temperatures are ideal for comas as it gives any doctor more time to operate and cure a comatose as it freezes organ usage. This won’t necessarily kill a patient but it will create a larger window for a potential awakening. How Ellie is brought to life again is a mystery but my question is how does this effect Angel? Remember in Cathy’s vision Angel could have possibly died or gone brain dead. Angel has the same virus as Ellie, just slightly mutated (hence his sudden athleticism) but somehow he is killed in the future. Ellie was ok with basically nothing but a crazed Benedict after sitting in a coffin for 10+ years, but Angel dies even though he is given much more technological aid and care? And before anyone says “it could’ve been an overdose,” I’d like to remind you that Ellie, Benedict, and their compatriot Ivan all graduated med-school with doctorate degrees. Not to mention Finn is a chemical scientist. So if Pooml is right in his thinking, how did Ellie live and Angel die?

  39. Question: Are we going to have a little teaser to this chapter? Like chapter 10 started with Lemmy looking on into the horizon. Like a small teaser hinting where/what/when Ch 11 will be taking place.

  40. Even though it is just a dream, I still think Cathy’s dream is going to affect the story in some capacity, even though some of it is already changing and we don’t know what it will be yet…
    I do have some head canons about some characters if anyone is interested.

    1. That would be nice to have. I speak for everyone when I say we are just waiting for something new to appear. Weather it be a huge discussion piece, or just a simple heads up.

    2. Well there are more questions than answers when it comes to Cathy’s dream e.g. are Finn and Ellie really alive. If bbmbbf is gonna do new stories, i might think they would be more like pieces of the jigsaw puzzle trying to create a picture either midway or at the end that would at least answer those questions.

  41. I just had a listen to an old bendy song called “Instraments of Cyanide” and while I was listening I kinda saw how the song ties into Little tails too. This isn’t a big prediction but this is just a chance to let your imaginations run wild. Who knows, listening with closed eyes can show suprising images.

    1. Ok I don’t even know where my imagination went but I HAD to get to my computer immediately after seeing this.
      I think I’ll dub this the “3rd corruption theory”
      (Verse 1)
      So I imagined both Audrey and April singing the first part. Audrey flashes back to her “wondering” to find Benedict’s “sin.” April flashes back to the explosion and Angel’s change from a crying mess to being filled with rage. “All is in tune with an Angel” as he feels the ball is in his court, so he leaves Annie in the care of Alfred and April so he can hunt Hoku, but April follows him. April follows to greatly into Angel’s hate filled conquest, as she comes to find Angel’s first victims, however she was not alone in stumbling on his actions, as Lemmy is already there, frozen from shock. Angels claws are now his “hands of sorrow.” Drawn by his hatred, he starts to go feral. He is the instrument of cyanide.
      (Verse 2)
      Angel finds himself at an off-limit warehouse. There he cuts all electrical wires leading to it, cutting the power. He breaks in, which results in him killing anyone who is wearing a black suit (walk of vengeance). However, he doesn’t find Hoku but he finds Bryce, broken for being locked away “for the longest time.” He’s sick of bowing before a “fake” in Hoku, and for a second, he breaks through to where he is being held. So Bryce’s surprise, Angel hugs him because his face resembles the burning image of Annie crying at the pool. The two try to escape, but stumble upon Bryce’s “damned,” a wall of photos of the people he helped to kill. Bryce then hands angel a blood vile, and Angel drinks it. Bryce realizes he has blood on his “hands of sorrow.” Furthermore, he is filled with rage. He laughs knowing what he gave Angel. Angel drank Bryce’s blood, giving him the gift of alpha, further changing Cathy’s timeline. The two find records of “hoku and “Project 31773” with coordinates. Bryce and Angel are both instruments of cyanide, but there are 3 in total. The final one is “project 31773,” but who is it? Well, flip your screen upsidedown, there’s your answer.

  42. Do you still have the uncensored comics?

    1. Try the Palcomix site.

  43. Hey bbmbbf, sorry to make this public but I’m slowly starting to worry if your ok. You’ve been pretty inactive and, sorry if I sound selfish here but this comic hasn’t had any new updates or news since Halloween of last year. Is everything alright? Is something wrong? Like I’m genuinely concerned. And my level of worry increases the more I write to this. As a fan and as a person. I j wanna know if your good.

    1. BBMBBF is probably focused on other things at the moment, like other artwork and sculptures right now.

  44. I would like to see that Angel and Annie’s last name is to be Pawcri. I think it sounds good but I will let you all be the judge for that and any other ideas would be good.

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